gistfile1.txt

== Wikivoyage link removed ==

The wikivoyage article does not effectively support travelers who intend to walk the trail; instead, it focuses more on renting cars and boats. If the content were better aligned with walking the trail, I would have no issue linking to it. Currently, the map on en:Wikipedia provides clearer guidance than what is available on Wikivoyage.

I have tried to advocate for a greater emphasis on the trail itself and the transportation options via ferries, but it seems that some contributors may have other priorities or no knowledge of the trail. Having [https://www.outdooractive.com/en/list/stockholm-archipelago-trail/312250678/ walked the entire trail in March and April], I have noticed that the Wikivoyage ecosystem often relies on speculation rather than firsthand experience. People suggest renting boats without actually having navigated the trail or used ferry services its more they sit at home googling..., and I have yet to see anyone walk the trail and rent a boat. Similarly, suggestions to rent a car to reach the ferry stop overlook the challenge of finding parking spaces... instead the agenda is that "not everyone prefer go by buss"... then its better take the boat the whole distance from central Stockholm instead...

I believe it is more beneficial for travelers to rely on [https://stockholmarchipelagotrail.com/ official sources] rather than secondhand guesses. Let me know what added value you see in Wikivoyage
Having walked numerous trails in Sweden and abroad, I find the ferry system in the archipelago very difficult to navigate—even as a native Swedish speaker. They have closed down apps and the time table is a nightmare with footnotes etc... If we aim to assist those unfamiliar with Swedish or traveling in the archipelago, they will likely need additional guidance.

I manage a [https://www.facebook.com/groups/2875020699552247 Facebook group] dedicated to the trail, but engagement seems low when it comes to actually venturing out. My guess is that the complexity of the journey poses a challenge, even for Swedish travelers. Travelers benefit most from guidance provided by those with firsthand experience, rather than relying on information pieced together through online searches. Practical knowledge makes all the difference.

Hope this make sense and let me know what added value you see wikivoyager adds

- [[User:Salgo60|Salgo60]] ([[User talk:Salgo60|talk]]) 09:48, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:This does not address the concerns about how [[User_talk:Salgo60#c-Salgo60-20250615094800-SHB2000-20250615091500|oddly timed this was]] as you were indeffed on enwikivoyage. As was [[:da:Special:Diff/256994763]], [[:de:Special:Diff/256994763]] or [[d:Special:Diff/2361172483]]. --[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] ([[User talk:SHB2000|talk]]) 10:38, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
::"It does—you can see the same arguments 'over there' that the [https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/User_talk:Salgo60#User_ban_nomination quality is not good enough], and I tell them to delete all the articles. It’s a never-ending argument with a person who makes changes but [https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail#Many_ferry_stops_are_operated_based_on_request..... doesn’t understand how the ferry system] works in the Swedish Archipelago. He made some changes, but after endless debates, it’s still wrong and I feel he is getting more personal offended than care about the article.... Yes, I’m disappointed. I feel that Wikivoyager is not a large enough community to produce quality travel-related articles and then edit articles without personal experience makes it a mess....
::As I mentioned above, this is the first time I personally find it complex to travel between different sections of a trail and that is because of the Swedish ferry system. My hope was that a [[d:Wikidata:WikiProject_Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail|data driven]] approach could make Wikivoyager a useful tool, but instead, it has made things more confusing. 
::{{u|SHB2000}}, '''if you care about the traveler, I see no reason to link to Wikivoyager'''. If you have another agenda, do as you wish. I hope you understand my desire to better document the trail—see [[d:Wikidata:WikiProject_Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail]], where I take a data-driven approach to documenting it. However, presenting it on Wikivoyager was not a good solution.
::The Swedish ferry system is complex, and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that without firsthand experience—especially without any or only minimal knowledge of Swedish—it’s difficult to fully grasp the challenges. I've spent hours on Wikivoyager trying to explain how it works to someone who still doesn’t understand, which only reinforces the importance of providing accurate information.
::For me its not a big thing but it makes me sad if travelers should be confused by misinformation as its difficult enough to walk the trail... 
::- over and out [[User:Salgo60|Salgo60]] ([[User talk:Salgo60|talk]]) 11:28, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
:::Erm, it seems you completely misunderstand the scope of Wikivoyage. --[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] ([[User talk:SHB2000|talk]]) 00:00, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
::::> completely misunderstand the scope of Wikivoyage 
::::That can be discussed on my talk page Now we speak about does '''wikivoyage add value or not for Stockholm Archipelago Trail''' and somekind of [[Dunning–Kruger_effect]] where people with low expertise on walking [[Stockholm Archipelago trail]] overestimate their abilities of giving advice and we get non-reliable and non-relevant information for a traveler
::::* those people of us actually hiking the trail are discussing very different things than that wikivoyage focus on: 
::::** '''Example questions a traveller has'''
::::*** Where can we find drinking water, and is it actually turned on?
::::*** Where is tent camping allowed? Does the Swedish right of public access (allemansrätten) apply or not?
::::*** How do we combine public transportation with ferry schedules to actually get where we need to go?
::::*** Is the local store open when we arrive? is there a local store...?
::::*** During holidays, are the ferries packed? Can we book seats in advance?
::::*** And warnings like ''If you go to Landsort during the early season, the boats may already be full—with bird watchers taking up all the space.''
::::*** For Midsummer, if you don’t leave the day before, forget about getting a guaranteed spot on the ferries.
::::** Then I look at [[:voy:Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail|Wikivoyage article]] the advice comes from people who have never set foot in the archipelago.
::::*** telling take the car to the ferry stop... we know that parking spaces is a problem better take the ferry from central Stockholm
::::*** suggestion to hire a boat, so far no one I have spoken with who is planning walking Stockholm Archipelago Trail has even thought about it...
::::I appreciate the idea of a wiki and the value of community-driven contributions, but what I’m seeing now is an article about Stockholm’s archipelago written by people who have clearly never set foot there—just piecing together recommendations from Google. Ideally, experienced hikers would step in to correct it, shaping the content to reflect what someone walking the trail actually needs to know, based on real-world lessons learned. 
::::At the moment, though, the [[:voy:Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail|Wikivoyage article]] seems to have invented its own version of reality and its better not to link travelers to that article instead read the [https://stockholmarchipelagotrail.com/ official site] that is based on reality... and as I say above the trail by itself is not the challenge its more than complicated using the ferries in the Swedish Archipelago so all bad advices should be avoided...
::::- ~~~~